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Warbreaker Reread: Prologue

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Warbreaker Reread: Prologue

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Warbreaker Reread: Prologue

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Published on October 13, 2016

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Warbreaker Brandon Sanderson

Welcome to the Warbreaker reread! This first week, we’ll meet Vasher and Nightblood, and receive our introduction to the magic of BioChroma and the world of Nalthis.

This reread will contain spoilers for all of Warbreaker and any other Cosmere book that becomes relevant to the discussion. This is particularly likely to include Words of Radiance, due to certain crossover characters. The index for this reread can be found here. Or you can just search on the tags “Warbreaker Reread” and “Stormlight Archive” if you prefer.

Click on through to join the discussion!

 

Prologue

Point of View: Vasher
Setting:
T’Telir – the God King’s dungeon
Timing:
The Beginning

 Take a Deep Breath (Recap)

Vasher is locked in a dungeon cell; the guards examine his possessions and find a sheathed sword. They depart for the guard room with their distraction; as the shouting begins, Vasher Awakens a straw man to fetch the cell keys. As the shouting dies out, he lets himself out of his cell and proceeds with his plan. His quarry, Vahr, is in a cell designed to thwart an Awakener; he has survived two weeks of torture, refusing to give his store of Breaths to the Hallandren priests. Vasher proposes a bitter deal to Vahr: the Breath for a quick death, keeping the power from those against whom he’d been leading a rebellion. Hating Vasher every moment, Vahr gives Vasher all his Breath, nearly overwhelming him; in return, Vasher kills Vahr. On the way out, he stops at the guard room to retrieve a very self-satisfied Nightblood from the dead guards.

Breathtaking (Quote of the Week)

Vahr Breathed. The color drained from him. The beautiful Iridescence, the aura that had made him look majestic despite his wounds and chains. It flowed from his mouth, hanging in the air, shimmering like mist. Vasher drew it in, closing his eyes.

“My life to yours,” Vahr Commanded, a hint of despair in his voice. “My Breath become yours.”

The Breath flooded into Vasher, and everything became vibrant. His brown cloak now seemed deep and rich in color. The blood on the floor was intensely red, as if aflame. Even Vahr’s skin seemed a masterpiece of color, the surface marked by deep black hairs, blue bruises, and sharp red cuts. It had been years since Vasher had felt such… life.

He gasped, falling to his knees as it overwhelmed him, and he had to drop a hand to the stone floor to keep himself from toppling over. How did I live without this?

One, this is a vividly beautiful description of BioChroma. Two, it pictures the passing of Breath from one person to another. Three, it’s a blatant foreshadowings… when you read it the second (or third or fourth) time. The key to Vasher’s ultimate success is hidden right here in plain sight.

Local Color (Annotations)

There are a LOT of annotations for this prologue, I tell you!

First, an explanation for why this became the prologue instead of the first chapter: It doesn’t make a good first chapter, Vasher isn’t a major player in the main story arc until much later. On the other hand, it makes a great hook, and works excellently as an introduction to the magic system and (to some extent) Hallandren culture and the political issues of the day. So… make it a prologue, and you keep the hook while sidestepping the concerns with flow.

Then there are sections on how Vasher got his name, how the first line morphed from its original to its final form, and the problem of Vasher stupidly failing to hide his Breath in his clothing. The first two are interesting, but there’s not much to say. The third is an example of making sure there’s a plausible rationale when a character does something stupid, and it’s well worth reading. None of the rationale actually makes it into the book, but he worked it out to make sure it existed and held together. (That must be why he writes so slowly, eh?)

One detail that did make the cut was Vasher Awakening his cloak to protect him, and then not requiring protection. This one does double duty: it provides further demonstration of the magic, and it scratches that itch created when characters never do anything that doesn’t Matter.

Sometimes you pack yourself a lunch, but then just don’t end up needing it.

There’s a section on why Vasher needed keys instead of Awakening a thread for a lockpick. In a society where Breath is a present magic, of course someone will design a lock that can’t be easily picked by any Awakener who happens along. And while these locks would naturally be more expensive, of course the God King’s dungeons would use them.

Finally, there are notes on Vahr and Vasher. While we only see Vahr at the end of his life, he’s critical to the main plot of the book. The Pahn Kahl rebellion and its repercussions are what created most of the present situations with which Siri and Vivenna are involved. Additionally, in the process of becoming a rebel hero, Vahr collected a huge stash of Breath, which Vasher will then use in a variety of extraordinary ways… not least of which is to continue to hide the fact that he’s a Returned.

As I Live and Breathe (Magic activities, using Breath, Investiture under Endowment)

As per the annotations, the Prologue provides our “Intro to BioChroma” seminar. The colors of the guard’s uniform brighten when he gets near Vasher, though the guard doesn’t have enough Breath to notice the change. Vasher’s construction of the straw man feels like an infodump on the fourth reading… but the first time through it’s a delightful exhibition of how the local magic works. The concept of fashioning a small creature to do a task for you, using Breath, color, and Command to fuel the magic, is completely new in the Cosmere.

Awakening the cloak to for protection reveals more of the magic: what it feels like to be devoid of Breath, and what a relief it is to retrieve his Breath from the straw man. Finally, Awakening the scarf to strangle Vahr portrays the contrast when a large amount of Breath is available: it’s no longer necessary to use the little tricks like approximating a human form or using a piece of his own body as a focus.

Just before the end, there’s the Breathtaking scene – where we learn how Breath is passed from one individual to another, and the effect of suddenly receiving a large amount of Breath. (Dun, dun, dun…)

Clashing Colors (Cultural clashes and peculiarities, wars, rebellions)

Without much detail, the Prologue contains intriguing hints about local culture. Hallandren is the “land of Returned gods, Lifeless servants, BioChromatic research, and— of course— color.” The people here “take their religious figures very seriously,” though we’ll wait to learn what those religious figures are.

The Pahn Kahl dissatisfaction is introduced only by the brief reference to “your failed rebellion.” At first glance, it’s a minor thing, but it reverberates throughout the book.

In Living Color (Returned: Court of the Gods, religion in general, priests)

All we see of the Gods is that Vasher is in the God King’s dungeon and that he got there by striking a priest in a bar fight. So… they exist and are taken seriously, and that’s about what we get here.

Don’t Hold Your Breath (Give it to me!) (Permanently-awakened objects)

From Vasher’s bag, a guard pulled free a long object wrapped in white linen. The man whistled as he unwrapped the cloth, revealing a long, thin-bladed sword in a silver sheath. The hilt was pure black.

nightblood__from_warbreaker_by_silverbeam-d2xuto8

I love this picture by Eileen Bowen, who graciously gave me permission to use it. When I found it on deviantart, I knew I had to ask, because I NEEDED it for the prologue. This thing gives me the chills.

There are clear indications from the start that Nightblood is unusual in several ways. Having just observed the aura of a person with extra Breath, when the clasp of Nightblood’s sheath is undone,

The colors in the room deepened. They didn’t grow brighter— not the way the guard’s vest had when he approached Vasher. Instead, they grew stronger. Darker. Reds became maroon. Yellows hardened to gold. Blues approached navy.

“Be careful, friend,” Vasher said softly, “that sword can be dangerous.”

(Understatement FTW!) So here’s an object with an aura, but an aura which has a different effect than that of a human. The words seem designed to create a sense of foreboding: deepened, not brighter but stronger, hardened… there’s something strange and perhaps terrible about this sword.

Vahr refers to Nightblood as “That… thing you bear.” On first reading, one may or may not link this with the sword, but by the end of the chapter I’d say it’s pretty clear. As Vasher leaves, stopping to retrieve his belongings,

The three guards lay dead. One of them sat in a chair. Nightblood, still mostly sheathed, had been rammed through the man’s chest. About an inch of a dark black blade was visible beneath the silver sheath.

Vasher carefully slid the weapon fully back into its sheath. He did up the clasp.

I did very well today, a voice said in his mind.

Vasher didn’t respond to the sword.

I killed them all, Nightblood continued. Aren’t you proud of me?

Vasher picked up the weapon, accustomed to its unusual weight, and carried it in one hand. He recovered his duffel and slung it over his shoulder.

I knew you’d be impressed, Nightblood said, sounding satisfied.

This sword not only has a weird aura, it talks. In your mind. It claims to have killed the guards – and who’s going to argue? – while still mostly sheathed. Be wary of this one, my friends.

Background Color (Ancient history: Manywar, Five Scholars)

While the Manywar isn’t mentioned yet, nor are the Five Scholars, Vasher drops a raft of hints at things we’ll eventually recognize as ancient history.

Vasher had around fifty Breaths, just enough to reach the first Heightening. Having so few made him feel poor compared with what he’d once held, but many would consider fifty Breaths to be a great treasure.

Fifty is a lot for most people, but for Vasher it’s a pitiful few. This doesn’t necessarily mean he’s ancient, but he’s Somebody, right?

In Vahr’s cell, Vasher remarks on the difficulty of Awakening metal, thinking that

Even during the height of his power, Vasher himself had only managed to Awaken metal on a few, select occasions.

Without going into the analysis, this wording suggests that Vasher has been around for a long time, that he was very powerful, and that if it was hard for him to Awaken metal, it would be nearly impossible for almost anyone else. Though it’s only in retrospect that we’ll realize just how long past that time is, or how high “the height of his power” was, this implies that both are Significant.  The discerning first-time reader might also make the connection to Nightblood by the end of the Prologue, but I almost certainly didn’t.

Vasher could, of course, have up to the fifth Heightening at any time, if he wished. That would require certain sacrifices he wasn’t willing to make.

Again, this will only become noteworthy when we read more of the gods, and learn that the Divine Breath grants the Returned the fifth Heightening. When we do find out, and connect it to this thought, we’ll eventually figure out that Vasher has learned to suppress the effect of the Divine Breath.

For now, it adds up to a man with a mysterious and probably most interesting past.

Like Fresh Blue Paint on a Wall (Just Sayin’ – idioms and suchlike)

“Colorless fool.” This is one of the guards, sneering at Vasher. Of course: on Nalthis, and in Hallandren especially, “colorless” would be as much of an insult as “fool.”

This seems a good place for quotations on the subject of idiomatic speech in the Cosmere. First, a quote from Peter:

For the Fresh Blue Paint heading, you may not see any metaphors like this in the book, or at least I don’t recall any that stood out. The issue here is that since these metaphors are natural there, and the language is translated into English, the metaphors were translated as well.

When Zahel talks on Roshar, he is translating his metaphors word-by-word into Alethi, where they’re meaningless. Then the translation from Alethi into English retains the meaninglessness.

This is expounded in a Reddit discussion about using the magic of Connection to speak a local language:

It’s a strange thing, because in most cases, you’re actually SPEAKING the language, not speaking your own and having it translated. The magic pretends you were born and grew up in that place.

So you can speak in puns, and riddles, and so forth. However, there’s latency from where you actually grew up that causes a kind of “blip” when you try to force through something that just doesn’t translate. If you just let the magic do its thing, you’ll naturally use idioms from the world you’re in. But if you lock on to one from your past, it causes a kind of disharmony in the magic–reminding your spirit web that you don’t actually speak the language. It will spit out a transliteration or verbatim phrase in this case.

You will rarely see Hoid having the trouble that Vasher does in using the language and magic, as Vasher doesn’t really care. But you will still see even the most expert slip up now and then.

There’s an extra layer on this that I don’t focus too much on, in that the books themselves are in translation–so when Hoid’s using a pun, he’s filtering his intent to pun through the magic, into Alethi, creating a local pun that works in the language–then that is in turn translated to one that works in our language.

What was happening with Zahel’s colorful metaphors on Roshar was a matter of forcing a direct, verbatim translation of the words of his metaphor rather than translating the metaphor into one with the same meaning in the local vernacular. The bit about why puns work isn’t relevant to this chapter, but since we’ve talked about it before, I left it in.

This can also be used to detect Worldhoppers in general: when someone uses a figure of speech, or even a single word, that just doesn’t fit the world, it’s probable that they are using something from their home planet. (The example given was Hoid using the word “coin” on Roshar, where there’s no such thing as a coin.) Since we’ve been told that there’s an unnamed Terriswoman on Nalthis, let us all by all means watch for this! I want to figure out who she is – and not just by someone telling me because they’ve already found her.

Exhale (Commentary, or Anything Left To Say?)

Interesting. There really isn’t much left to say – at least, not this week.

One thing that didn’t get much attention yet was Vasher’s plan to get to Vahr. He found a tavern frequented by priests, started a bar fight, and made sure he hit one of the priests. Everyone else in the fight would spend the night in the local clink, but hitting a priest made sure he’d go to the God King’s dungeon. I guess when the goal is “hundreds upon hundreds” of Breaths, the personal risk is pretty minimal – especially when you’re already immortal.

 

There’s no housekeeping needed just yet, so that’s it for the blog. Join us next week when we encounter the Idrian royal family, culture, and religion; discover political intrigues; and launch into the main plot. It’s not a long chapter, but we’re not in a big hurry, and there are plenty of cultural and character issues I want to examine at leisure. So just Chapter 1 with annotations for next week. (Note that the link takes you to the chapter 1 annotations PART 1; don’t miss that there’s a Part 2. You can click the forward-arrow link at the bottom of Part 1 to get there.)

Now it’s time for the comments! Have fun, and I’ll see you there!

Alice Arneson is a SAHM, blogger, beta reader, and literature fan. If you Facebook, you can join her in the Tor-Sanderson-rereader-specific group known as the Storm Cellar; since it’s a closed group, you have to ask to join. Identify yourself as a Tor friend, and one of the moderators will add you.

About the Author

Alice Arneson

Author

Alice Arneson is a SAHM, blogger, beta reader, and literature fan. If you Facebook, you can join her in the Tor-Sanderson-rereader-specific group known as the Storm Cellar; since it’s a closed group, you have to ask to join. Identify yourself as a Tor friend, and one of the moderators will add you.
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ChocolateRob
8 years ago

refusing to give his store of Breaths priests

I think you missed out a ‘to the’ in the middle there. Other than that this was very well done, lots of detail. I’m one of those that pointed out that Vasher never used idioms like these during the WoR reread so I appreciate seeing the reason here, thank you.

Avatar
8 years ago

YEEEEEEES I’m so happy to see this started! :D :D :D

I have nothing more to contribute for now, I just wanted to say that. ^_^

Avatar
8 years ago

I loved this book — among other things, the world that he built seemed very vibrant. Colorful, if you will. This prologue, on the other hand . . . he seemed to be doing the thing that so many authors with whiz-bang ideas do and throwing in as much local jargon as he could, hoping that we’d be intrigued enough to stick around rather than just frustrated that we didn’t know what was going on. He explains just enough (with the straw man, etc.) but I feel like he could’ve done without quite so many references to things we won’t even understand the significance of until well into the book (“fifth heightening” etc.)

Overall, I’m glad to see someone re-reading this one, and I’m especially glad it’s Wetlander. Can’t wait to see more!

Avatar
8 years ago

I’ve been looking forwards to this a long time. I don’t have time for lengthy comments right now so here’s some brief ones:

Warbreaker was the first ever book by Brandon that I read. I seem to be very much in the minority in this regard though. Obviously, I enjoyed it a lot since I’m posting here :) Although I read the PDF download first, I made sure to order the US hardback since the cover absolutely wonderful. A lovely piece of art just by itself and so appropriate too.

I love the in-world term “Heightening”. So simple, yet evocative. However, “BioChroma” doesn’t work for me. Feels too modern and also a bit clunky in comparison.

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8 years ago

Since the annotations (and the book!) are available on Brandon’s site, it would be super useful if you had links at the top to the bits you’re discussing in a given post. 

 Prologue

Annotations

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8 years ago

Yippee! My Thursdays have something new to take time away from all the other stuff I need to do!

On the post: Good overview! So many interesting things. I love the use of the annotations. There are going to be some fun connections to make. I’m glad Brandon does these things. Gives a better insight!

I really like the ideas of a sympathetic nature (using bodily materials to aid in focus/capability) to Awakening that is not present in other forms of Investiture. Connects with the fact that the major form of Investiture here on Nalthis is essentially embodied – the notion of the Returned. Brandon’s discussion of it in the annotations is neat – with them being little tricks to be able to stretch use of fewer breaths farther –

“If I were to write a sequel to the book (and I just might—more on this later) I’d want to get back to these two aspects of the magic. Talk about them more, maybe have characters who have smaller quantities of Breath, and so need to use these tricks to make their Awakening more powerful. . . . So I made them optional. They’re things that you can do to make your Awakenings require fewer Breaths. That lets me have them for resonance, but not talk about them when I don’t need them. I still worry that they set up false expectations for the magic, however.”

Makes me want to read those stories as well. Tinkering with magic is pretty cool.

 

Some of my own thoughts –

On Nightblood’s effect – this also really intrigued me on this read-through, as it is so blatantly meant to be read against the more general heightening effect of holding breath. But it raises intriguing questions:

What is going on here in terms of physics? Investiture? Is this observable by the naked eye or is it only noticeable to Vasher as he has enough breaths to note shades of difference in color (contrast being made with normal breath investiture)? What does it signify about Nightblood? About Nalthis investiture? Colors is the fuel for investiture here, so does Nightblood have an personal “buff” on being able to use local color more easily/better? Is this necessary for what it does in consuming breaths or is it tangential to it? What could “stronger” color signify? (beyond simply a cool visual effect indicating power and looming action…) – many of these are either unanswerable or perhaps are answered and I’m just not remembering at the moment.

In addition – I was very intrigued with the color scheme of Nightblood – while it makes all the other colors stronger – it is very binary and “without” color (yes, I know white is the presence of all colors, etc): with white linen and and black hilt/blade. This binary is intriguing as I think it is a literary hint about the way Nightblood thinks – very dichotomous, bipolar worldview – good vs bad. Which is why its words are exceedingly chilling. It leaves no room for nuance, complexity, etc.  

Also, there might be an interesting connection in the Ars Arcanum – with one of the greater heightenings providing Perfect Invocation – drawing more color from objects as fuel, which drains to white rather than grey? Something to think on.

 

Breath “puffs” – very similar effect to Stormlight….Is there a connection between the two? Is that a specific reason that Vasher ends up on Roshar? Is it easier for him to consume Rosharan investiture fuel than it would be say on Sel? I’m sure there is a WoB on this, but I’m not remembering…

Also, this:

“Vasher had always found it interesting that the men who watched dungeons tended to be as bad as, or worse then, the men they guarded. Perhaps that was deliberate. Society didn’t seem to care if such men were outside the cells or in them, so long as they were kept away from honest men. Assuming that such a thing existed”

This runs counter to Brandon’s personal views, which I’ve heard him state on multiple occasions, that he views humans as essentially good.

As this scene is in Vasher’s POV, this gives an intriguing insight into his character. As Wetlander mentions, there is enough to let us know he has had a very interesting past, if not hints that it has been extremely long. He seems to be very jaded about humanity and society in general, which helps build him and his grumpiness up (we’ll see a lot more of it later). But it does leave the question of whether he is jaded because of actions of others or because of his own actions, or both? What does Vasher essentially believe about humankind and how does that inform his actions and personality?

 

Lastly – a very tangential thought – not taken from the prologue (but prompted by it):

Vasher is essentially immortal inherently, as long as he has a breath or another source of investiture so he doesn’t have to give up his own. How does this compare with the immortality obtained by other worldhoppers (e.g. Hoid)? Is his type of immortality an advantage? Disadvantage? What does this tell us about Endowment vs other Shards?

 

And a PS completely unrelated – but found in the annotations to the Dedication –

“You may know that when we were married, I commissioned a large batch of swords—inscribed with names from my books—and gave them to my closest friends. I named Emily’s sword Lightsong, and she carried it around at the reception. (Mine is named Dragonsteel.)”

HA! Brandon is such a loveable geek, who is apparently surrounded by other loveable geeks or those who are fine with indulging him in his loveable geekdom.

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8 years ago

Chris @@@@@ 5 – maybe the minority, but you’re certainly not the only one – I went into more detail on the previous post, but Warbreaker was my first Sanderson experience too.

Wetlander – When you say “Vasher’s ultimate success” in the Breathtaking section, I assume you’re talking about giving his Breath to Denth before killing him, correct? That’s an interesting observation – I didn’t realize until you pointed it out that it was actually foreshadowed here.

Re: Nightblood – I find it extremely creepy to have such a childish enthusiasm paired with such a casual view of death and destruction. Understandable, for the most part, given his Command, but still creepy. Also, I *know* that Nightblood is a European-style greatsword, as pictured above and described throughout the text, but for some reason, I can’t help picturing it (him?) in my mind as a katana.

Also, thanks for including so much of the information from the annotations. I’ve read through them at least once myself, but it’s nice to have a reminder of all of those things going on in the background.

Nazrax
8 years ago

@7 Don’t forget that the blake smoke which rises off of Nightblood is described (WoB, I think, and not directly in-book) as corrupted breaths.

@8 Nightblood is described as a “long, thin-bladed sword” which, while I know next-to-nothing about different kinds of swords, makes me think more of a katana or rapier than a normal sword.

Something else I find curious about Awakening is that, unlike other magic systems in which the Investiture itself is consumed, here the Investiture is only transferred while something that’s not Invested (color) gets consumed.

Braid_Tug
8 years ago

First – Yeah!  We are truly lunched!

Second – Blue Paint.  Yes!!!  I was right!  Translation errors.  Or I’ve seen this discussion before and forgot about where I developed the theory.  Oh well.   Glad that we have official word for why Vasher had so many sayings in SA, but so few in WB.

Third – Nightblood and Need are the two best sapient swords in my memory.   I really hope Brandon gives us a PoV from Nightblood in the future.   He teased that once on FB or twitter.

What other sapient swords are there in fantasy? 

If you are eager to read Brandon’s Annotations ahead of time, he has them on his blog. Fun reading.

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8 years ago

Szeth seems to be able to understand Nightblood. Does that mean that the sword has the language magic?

Braid_Tug
8 years ago

@7:  I had to go searching for the wedding pictures available to fans.

Serious Brandon

Silly Brandon

Wedding – Link to his blog & Emily with her sword

More Wedding – silly Brandon

Braid_Tug
8 years ago

Edit:  it’s back!

Darn it… I think my post @12 is under moderator review.   Too many links or something.

If you want to see Brandon’s wedding swords, he has the images on his blog. He posted them in Sept. 2006.  Search wedding if the link does not work.

http://brandonsanderson.com/?s=wedding

 

 

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8 years ago

I am reading along with a borrowed e-book from my county library system that has links for the acknowledgements with each chapter :D

Re: “failed rebellion” – fits into the Entertainingly Wrong trope which I think is one of Brandon’s favorites for misdirection lol

@@@@@ 9 – All of the various investiture systems can be classified as “End-positive”, “End-neutral”, or “End-negative” regarding whether power is gained or lost. Hemalurgy is the only system designated as “end-negative” since not all power can be transferred using a spike,and also stored investiture ends up decaying over time.

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8 years ago

WOW! SO EXCITED! 

Not much to say at this point, beyond a conveyance of my joy at our return to the Cosmere. And NIGHTBLOOD YAY!!!!! 

 

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8 years ago

Huzzah – it is begun!!

Firstly…you’re right in how much foreshadowing is contained here.  First time I read it, didn’t take special note of any of it(again, how good is Brandon at this?  So many seeds are planted here, and yet we have no idea…).

Secondly, I definitely am happy he chose this as the Prologue – I remember the first time reading it, and it hooked me hard.  The whole concept of breaths and colour…so incredibly fascinating.  

Chris @@@@@ 5  – I agree with you about BioChroma.  Throws me every time.  Oh well.

Lastly, many thanks to all of you here who are enriching my knowledge so much.  In my circle of friends, I am definitely the most “Sanderson-knowledgeable”, but whenever I come on here(similar experience at signings!), I feel I am woefully short of the standard y’all set!  I feel I can’t contribute quite as much, but I do enjoy reading all of your thoughts.

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8 years ago

@Wetlandernw 13 – “White is the presence of all colors and black is the absence. When color is drained from an object in normal Awakening, it turns grey. Perfect Invocation drains to white. So… draining all color from an object should leave it black, right?”  – This also confused the heck out of me when I read (and re-read, and re-re-read, etc.) Warbreaker, but the more I thought about the nature of light and colour, the more it seemed to make sense to me.

The way I look at it is this – what we see as a colour is really a pigment that absorbs all the OTHER colours, except the one we see, which is actually being reflected back. Therefore, what black is, is the absence of the colour being reflected back to us, i.e. the pigment absorbs ALL THE COLOURS! Which means, that when an Awakener has enough Heightenings to drain all the colour from an object, what the observer sees is the perfect reflection of all light, i.e., white.

Anywho, I’m super excited for this re-read, and welcome back Wetlandernw!! 

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8 years ago

@19 That is a clever idea

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8 years ago

The one thing that always weirds me out…or, from a slightly different perspective, really intrigues me!…is how Investiture via Breath is so finite.

One Breath per person in the world, maximum, right?  And yet the Returned consume huge amounts of Breath without bringing new Breath in, and tricks like Vasher’s against Arsteel and Denth wipe out pretty significant chunks, and the creation of Lifeless, and and and.

Presumably, the Breath that’s “lost” just goes back to Endowment to be reintroduced into the world with a new birth, of course.  And the recoverable aspect of Breath as mentioned by an earlier poster works as an opposite-coin kind of balance.

I’m not sure I have a point, really.  I just am always struck by that, especially when compared to Sel (essentially infinite Investiture from the Dead Gods), Scadrial (WOB is that Scadrial ain’t running out of metal soon, and the Investiture comes straight from Preservation/Harmony), and Roshar (storms constantly refuel as many gems as they can find).  Roshar comes the closest, certainly, but filling metaphorical jars with rainwater is a lot different than being born with a small cup of rainwater and that’s all you’ll ever get without taking someone else’s!

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8 years ago

I really enjoyed this book.  It was wonderfully fun and light in places, and the dark scenes were far more effective when they came after happy moments of camaraderie and teamwork.   

Random pet peeve: We never get to learn much about Vahr or any of the other Pahn Kahl rebels.  They’re the main antagonists, but all we know is that they don’t like being ruled by a bunch of priests in the name of gods that they don’t even worship.  I personally sympathize with this viewpoint.  The whole “peace and order” justification for the God-King really seems weak, and it seems to create unnecessary problems (like the Pahn Kahl rebels) that really could have been avoided in a less inflexible and theocratic system.

Hallendren doesn’t particularly want to go to war with the Idrians, and the Idrians don’t want a war, either.  Pahn Kahl just wants people to leave them alone.  If the priests were decent diplomats, this entire crisis could have been avoided, and they could have managed a peaceful settlement decades ago.        

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8 years ago

@22 IIRC, no one thought of the Pahn Kahl as being the former owners of the occupied territory. Sort of how the First Nations or Native Americans get ignored.

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8 years ago

Great start Alice.  I appreciate the inclusion of the annotation material, as it helps to flesh out and provide some good background on the story.

I remember being intrigued by Vasher, but not necessarily liking him at this point.  Then again, I don’t think he was written to be liked (in general) at this point.  Honestly, I’m not sure that I really “like” Vasher/Zahel all that much even now (personality wise, anyway), but I do appreciate his inclusion in the Cosmere and all that he brings with him/represents. So, I guess I just respect him? I may not be articulating this all that well. Moving on…

Nightblood is one of the more fascinating weapons I’ve read about in Fantasy.  I put him right up there with Dragnipur and above others like Callandor and Dyrnwyn.  Looking forward to the group discussing him in more detail.

Joyspren
8 years ago

Wow, I missed so much foreshadowing in my first read of this! That’s why you always have to reread Sanderson. Also, some of you have spent way more effort trying to understand the whole color drain process than I ever would, thanks for enlightening me. And now I’m wishing I could have carried around a sword at my wedding! Thanks Braid_Tug for sharing the links 

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8 years ago

I have to admit that this Prologue had the exact opposite effect on me than Brandon was going for – an entire book of Vasher would have bored me to tears.  For some reason, Vasher and Nightblood didn’t really grab me…maybe too many gruff men with magic swords?  Once we get into the Returned and Siri’s story, I grew much more engaged with it.

The Cosmere tie-ins, though, are fascinating. By the time I was reading Warbreaker for the first time, I’m pretty sure I had twigged to all of the Cosmere systems being transactional, but hadn’t necessarily moved beyond that.

I’m excited – I’ve only read this one once, and breezed through it the first time. I’m sure there’s tons I’ve missed.

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8 years ago

There are two different ways to mix colors: additive colors like light add to white, while subtractive colors like pigments add to black.

additivesubtractive

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8 years ago

Nightblood is definitely an interesting subject. For example, why does Nightblood only draw Breath (at a fantastic rate) from the person holding it when it’s drawn, and not when it’s in its sheath? Is there something magical about the silver sheath? And if it’s corrupting the breath it receives, does it constantly need a new supply? Or does it only need them when it’s destroying everything it touches? I think it’s meaningful that something designed to “Destroy Evil” without any understanding of what “Evil” is can be so destructive. If it really understood “Evil” would it try and destroy itself?

Nazrax
8 years ago

@28 The chapter 35 annotation says that Nightblood gets its idea of what’s evil from the person who’s holding it, and that if the person holding it believes himself to be evil, then he’ll end up killing himself with it.

Could the sheath be aluminum? If memory serves, WoB is that it messes with most of the Cosmere magic systems.

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Heather
8 years ago

I read Stormlight Archive before Warbreaker – so the idioms of Vasher’s speech were lost on me – it makes so much sense now!  Thank you!

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Kalaxin
8 years ago

@7 sillyslovene, @13 Wetlandernw, @19 dashardie, and @27 birgit.  Thanks for raising or expounding on the subject of color.  Basically, birgit’s color wheels tell the story.  It’s more a question of adding color or brightness (the aura of Awakeners) or subtracting it (the aura or property of Nightblood).  The removal of color from an object in Nalthis normally results in grayness as a perception more than a simple physical property.  It’s just another way of saying drab (I seem to recall that people without any breaths are called drabs).  In contrast, pure white and black are perceived as distinctive colors.  Grey, on the other hand, shows no bias towards a particular color nor does it exhibit a distinctive brightness.  Nightblood drains the investiture of its surroundings which has the effect of darkening its color (red darkens to maroon, and yellow darkens to gold in the example given).  Awakener auras brighten the colors.

@7 sillyslovene (perhaps Alice, as well) remarked on the immortality of the Returned such as Vasher.  We know that the Returned can surrender their investiture and die – as does Lightsong near the end.  However, they can also be killed as was the case with Lightsong’s lady friend, Blushweaver.  If Vasher was immortal what was the point of Denth dueling with him?  Just to demonstrate that he could defeat a weakened Vasher (by torture) in a duel?  My argument would be strengthened if all 5 ancient scholars had been Returned – not just Vasher/ Talaxin.

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Austin
8 years ago

Brandon’s greatest weakness is definitely his info dumps. Reading the prologue again reminded me of this. He’s improved over the years but it’s still a weakness. The prologue for TWoK was pretty bad too. The problem is that the characters have no reason to contemplate the mechanics behind the things that they do. Vasher has vast experience with Awakening and would not contemplate what he’s doing. So it becomes an intrusion by the narrator, even though it’s supposed to be 3rd person limited. It gets very clunky. It says something about his skill that people are still hooked. Reading it again makes me more critical. 

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8 years ago

@27 and 31 – Ahh. I see – The effect of Nightblood is essentially antithetical to that of an Awakener. Places it/him and its/his creation in a new light, potentially as abominable (as in, abomination!) as Vasher may feel. The additive aspects, I fell, should make for some fun speculation about what is added and how. 

@31 – on Immortality

I guess this is me just using the wrong word. I mean Vasher is “inherently immortal” in that, yes, while he can die (either by surrendering breath or being killed), he will not die naturally. Meaning – as long as he has Investiture (either through Breath, Stormlight, or something else) he and his body will stay alive, which is a very different state of affairs from the rest of of mortals. This is not the same as the “immortality” of, say, Hoid, who has gained extremely long life (or a cessation of aging) via . . . something, and who is also virtually impossible to kill because of … something (may be the same something, may be because of a different something). 

But it is also intriguing that this Returned status of “immortality” is only conferred after death. Enter Christian imagery and what-not of course through the action of Endowment raising them from the dead to a new life/state. 

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8 years ago

Thanks Alice!  As you know, I’m looking forward to this….to finishing Warbreaker for the first time!  

The Annotations are very interesting too.  Thanks for those links, y’all.

Loved the pix too, Braid Tug!

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Mike E.
8 years ago

Like someone else said, based on the text I always imagined Nightblood as being much more rapier-like that the Deviant Art image posted.

Something like this but not quite as intricate a cross guard:

comment image

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Firemyst
8 years ago

Yay!  It’s here.  Thank you, Alice, and great job.  

The only thing different I picked up rereading the prologue last night for the zillionth time (WB is my fav BWS book other than WoR) was when Vasher thinks to himself about the difficulty in Awakening metal.  That he’d only been successful rarely at the height of his power.   I’d never connected that to Nightblood before.  Then when he was thinking he had available many breaths but that involved circumstances and actions he didn’t want to take.  Yes, he’s suppressed his Divine Breath but also….could he retrieve the breath from Nightblood?  

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8 years ago

Birgit @27 – Thanks for that! I didn’t realize colour theory could lead to such a time suck!

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8 years ago

@23 noblehunter

Native Americans may not be the best metaphor, because it doesn’t seem like the Pahn Kahl were mostly wiped out by disease and warfare.  They seem to still live where they did before the invasion, and some of them even play a part in the administration of the God-King’s realm.  I think of them more like Saxons in the early years under the Normans, with the additional problem of not buying into the same religion as the Hallendrens. 

Bluefingers isn’t sadistic or cackling, just very ruthless in the pursuit of his people’s freedom.  He’s willing to kick off an enormous war to do it, but it’s not like he has a host of other options.  Looking back, I’m somewhat unsettled by the “happy” ending; the Pahn Kahl still aren’t happy being second-class citizens under a foreign theocracy, and sooner or later they’ll rise up again.   

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8 years ago

And away we go.  I’m psyched (!), but not enough time right now to read everything here.

David_Goldfarb
8 years ago

Nalzen@9: There’s precedent elsewhere in the Cosmere for magic that consumes something other than Investiture: Allomancy consumes metal, while sand mastery consumes water. (Although sand mastery can also create water, which strikes me as a bit jarring, inasmuch as it’s the magical equivalent of perpetual motion.)

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8 years ago

@38

 

No he should not be able to retrieve any of the huge store of breath used to create nightblood because those are not his breaths. Shashara made nightblood, not Vasher. I suppose it might be possible to retrieve the breaths nighblood consumed from him when he drew it but I doubt it since he didn’t give them to nightblood so much as have them ripped from him. Also those breaths are supposed to be corrupted so it would probably be a bad idea even if possible. This does bring up an interesting possibility though, is it possible for nightblood to do the whole ‘my breath to yours” thing and give his breath away? That would be a wild ride I bet.

FenrirMoridin
8 years ago

I like the prologue to Warbreaker, but it’s definitely up there with The Way of Kings in terms of books that throw you into the deep end at first (although still a couple steps below TWoK, which is reigning champ for Sanderson books in that regard).  I didn’t even mind it on my first reread though, which I chalk up to it ending with Nightblood’s intro, which I still love.  Just, something about a sentient destructive artifact, but it’s got that…childlike naïveté about what it does, gets me every time.

Speaking of Nightblood, always though of him looking like an estoc – just maybe a bit wider and with edges instead of just the stabby point, even though really like Shardblades, Nightblood is in that category of swords where an edge is purely optional for aesthetic purposes.

I wonder if Vasher will do anything with Breaths as Zahel on Roshar.  So far other off-world magic system cameos (at least the ones I can remember right now) have been along the lines of something where if you know what you’re looking for you can tell what was done, but it’s not blatantly obvious it’s a different magic system.  So Zahel causing someone to stagger by passing on his Breaths would count as long as we don’t see the Breaths being transferred.  
The other thing I can see is Zahel sacrificing himself to save someone with his Returned breath, but that feels like it’s too obvious a demonstration of another world’s magic…at least Nightblood himself might fit in more in Roshar by appearing like a weird, corrupted Shardblade.

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8 years ago

Hah, I already feel in over my head. I guess I need go o read the Stormlight books now. (I’ve been doing a Brandon Sanderson read but purposefully avoiding those since they weren’t done yet and wanted to focus on some other stuff for awhile next. I think the only ones I have left of the non-Stormlight books are Calamity and Bands of Mourning (and a few short stories)).

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8 years ago

Wow I’m late for the party. I need to read all the posts first before I can write anything. 

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8 years ago

Reading through the Stormlight Archive Reread (and the Rothfuss one, for that matter), I was struck by how much cosmology, connectivity, science, and symbolism I simply didn’t notice while reading the books. I pay attention to worldbuilding — places, cultures, the history that creaed them and the mythologies they create. But with the possible influences of gods, the science of magics (beyond wildlife biology and ecology), the connections between worlds, and even sometimes the connections between different parts of a story on one world? I’m oblivious. This reread should be very informative and interesting. 

I can’t even recognize who’s on the Warbreaker cover. :-p

Braid_Tug
8 years ago

:  it will be better when Vasher is not on screen.  The next few chapters should be light on anything that touches on SA.  

But Vasher and Nightblood just generates Cosmere wide discussions. 

Plus Vasher really doesn’t have much to do yet in the SA.  So it’s not really required yet.  Just be okay with some Kaladin spoilers.  Which honestly I needed.  The first third of WoK was a slog for me.

Audio book notes:  while I hated the surfer dude Lightsong of the first narrator, I did enjoy his Nightblood.  

The new narrator is okay.  Not great, but okay.  However I do miss the child wonder in Nightblood’s voice.  

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8 years ago

The different opinions of whether Brandon gave too much information or not enough are interesting.  For me, I crave information about a world, its magic, culture, intricacies, etc.  I think the only practical way to get it in the plot of this story is to learn it from characters with experience.  We can have stories where a character gets trained or goes to school, thus having to actually think about the magic, but that forces the story into a certain course from basic to more advanced.  That can be as enjoyable as any other structure, but books would get samey much faster if all stories only featured 100% authentic ways for a character to think about the magic/mechanics/back story, etc.  

We already accept the viewpoint jumping back and forth between several characters, always cutting between them at the perfect times to preserve suspense and further the story–and the whole translation to English, idioms and all, discussed earlier–so having Vasher think about some mechanics of the magic as he very authentically uses it or Szeth think about the lashings as he uses them in the prologue of Way of Kings actually helps me immerse myself and enjoy the story more.  I only really notice when a story goes full-on monologuing by the bad guy about their plan, but I sometimes still appreciate it even then because I would be disappointed if I couldn’t find out how or why certain things were done.

On a totally different note, I have always disliked this cover.  To me, it looks like the cover of an 80’s hair band album.  When I first read this years ago as I was just getting into Sanderson, my wife gave me a major raised eyebrow when she saw it.  It looked like some medieval pulp romance.

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Firemyst
8 years ago

@43:  Vasher and Shashara created Nightblood.  Not just Shashara alone.  

Yes, I thought of the corrupted breaths but wasn’t quite certain in my mind if ALL breath it held was corrupted or just what it stole once drawn.  

And yea, what a ride that’d be if Nightblood shared his store of breaths with someone that’s just a tad off…oh, say someone like Szeth.  

wcarter
8 years ago

Based on the description I always picture Nighblood as being some form of Calvary Saber rather than a straight sword. (Katanas are overdone and definitely not heavy, so I doubt that’s what Brandon had in mind).

Image result for Cavalry Saber

Something Like this maybe except with a black guard?

Nazrax
8 years ago

@51 Nice! Though don’t forget that Nightblood is often described as being much heavier than it looks.

Braid_Tug
8 years ago

@52:  I always figured Nightblood was heavier than it looks because of the breaths he held.   It is a feature of his magic, not his style.

 

Here’s a black sword, but Nightblood is not described with a basket hilt.

Black hilt

 

but I do like @51, wcarters’ Calvary sword better. Here’s one from Edged Weapons

black Calvary sword

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8 years ago

@50 firemyst

 

As usual, Nightblood refused to acknowledge Shashara’s death.
She made
me, you know,
Nightblood said.
Made me to destroy things that were evil.
 
 
 

That was the great crux of the problem, the issue that had dominated
most of Vasher’s life. A thousand Breaths. That was what it took to Awaken
an object of steel and give it sentience. Even Shashara hadn’t fully under-
stood the process, though she had first devised it.
It took a person who had reached the Ninth Heightening to Awaken
stone or steel. Even then, this process shouldn’t have worked. It should have
created an Awakened object with no more of a mind than the tassels on his
cloak.
Nightblood should not be alive. And yet he was. Shashara had always been
the most talented of them, far more capable than Vasher himself, who had
used tricks—like encasing bones in steel or stone—to make his creations.
Shashara had been spurred on by the knowledge that she’d been shown up by
Yesteel and the development of ichor- alcohol. She had studied, experimented,
practiced. And she’d done it. She’d learned to forge the Breath of a thousand
people into a piece of steel, Awaken it to sentience, and give it a Command.
That single Command took on immense power, providing a foundation for
the personality of the object Awakened.
With Nightblood, she and Vasher had spent much time in thought, then
finally chosen a simple, yet elegant, Command. “Destroy evil.” It had seemed
like such a perfect, logical choice. There was only one problem, something
neither of them had foreseen.
 
Sounds to me like Vasher helped, at least conceptually but it was Shashara that actually did the deed and breathed life into nightblood.

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8 years ago

And to all those that think of Nightblood as a katana or saber, there is just one problem. Nightblood is described as being straight:

 

“Big thing. Not a dueling blade, more like an Easterner sword. Straight and really long.

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8 years ago

And also quite long:

 

“Honestly,” she said. “You would think that you’d admit that bringing
a five- foot- long black sword out in public would be rather conspicuous

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Landis963
8 years ago

@44:  I feel like Vasher would not be using his Divine Breath off Nalthis for one major reason:  Returned generally have flashbacks to their Endowment briefing just before they use their Breath.  I find it difficult to believe that Endowment would know about some avertable tragedy on Roshar (Unless she got wind of Honor’s Splintering before Vasher died the first time, if the timing makes sense) to be able to brief any Returned on it and send them on a course to intercept it.  

FenrirMoridin
8 years ago

@57: True, I figure it’s just kind of an ace Zahel has access to – plus if he uses it to heal someone when we’re not in his head we wouldn’t need to see that flashback. That said, I wonder if Vasher already had that flashback and if he just did what Endowment wanted without giving up his divine Breath…

As for the discussion on Nightblood’s appearance, a thought occurred to me: is Nightblood restricted to just that one shape?  The weapon he’s modeled off of can change shape rather easily after all, but then he’s also clearly an imperfect copy of a Shardblade in multiple ways.  So even if he does currently have a fixed shape…maybe it’s possible that isn’t his final form, so to speak.

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8 years ago

#57, maybe Endowment is just better at future-seeing than the Shards on Roshar?

I’m surprised no one has compared Nightblood to Stormbringer, first of the black, life-stealing soul-destroying swords. I guarantee that BWS was very consciously creating the similarity. Also the key difference: Stormbringer is malicious and Nightblood is innocent.

I’m sure people have already made the comparison among the Cosmere magic-super-beings: Returned, Radiants, Elantrians, and allomancers? They all get the ability to use a specific type of magic via a dramatic/traumatic “initiation experience.” Only the pre-Reod Elantrians seemed to transform without being “broken” in some way first. There does also seem to be a non-initiation-based magic system on most Shardworlds (e. g. hemalurgy, Forging, the Old Magic). Some but not all of these (ChayShan) seem to require familial descent. In fact, only Nalthis seems to have a single magic system–and I mean “seems to” since we’ve only seen one sequence of events in one small geographic area of that world.

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Wortmauer
8 years ago

I’ll cast my vote as one who doesn’t mind these infodumpy prologues (M:TFE, Warbreaker, TWOK). Yes, I do get a bit bored with Szeth doing acrobatics and slaughtering NPCs, but mostly I think the author does a pretty decent job of introducing a mini plot arc and moving it along through these prologues, so it’s not just “here’s 12 things you need to know about the magics”.

One thing I don’t get is all the love for Nightblood. Yes, he’s amusing as homicidal maniacs go, but other than wondering how he actually kills people (do we ever get to actually see it happen?), I don’t really want more screen time.  He’s not, like, someone I’d want to see starring in a spinoff series.

Apropos of nothing, the other day I discovered a kitten in my yard – maybe 1 to 2 weeks old. (His mom is a stray I’ve known for years.) I’ve started calling him Scoot.

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8 years ago

I thought the mechanism of Nightblood killing was to get in their heads and make them prone to fight.

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8 years ago

@60: I don’t especially like Nightblood either. His conversations with Vasher are sometimes entertaining, but his character doesn’t intrigue me much.

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8 years ago

I didn’t care that Vasher uses color-ful metaphors in WoR but not in Warbreaker, because they let me figure out for myself that Zahel isn’t from Roshar. Normally these things have to be pointed out to me.
But the best “hidden-in-plain-sight thing” from WoR is not a metaphor but when Kaladin and Zahel talk in Ch. 81:

{Kaladin}: “Have you ever had to choose between two equally distasteful choices?”
{Zahel}: “Every day I choose to keep breathing.”

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8 years ago

I actually read Stormlight Archive first, reread it, and then bought every Sanderson book I could afford and tore through them. (Turns out I’d read the first Mistborn trilogy years ago, but there weren’t any other Sanderson books in the library and this was before I got an e-reader.) So I didn’t recognize the grumpy priest or the talking sword at all until after I read this book. Vasher is probably one of my favorite characters, because he’s not one of those charismatic, inspiring heroes. He’s a gruff scholar who cheats at fights and seems to regret a lot of things, and is no-kidding awful with people. I can relate to that. And Nightblood is a delightfully creepy mix of innocence and disaster.

I really love reading the annotations in this book because it gives me a sense of how much work went into the world and the characters. Not a one of them is a cliché.

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8 years ago

@13 (Wetlandernw), via @8 (jeremyguebert)

On the subject of the foreshadowing of Vasher’s ultimate success over Denth, and whether there is any similar foreshadowing in the SA, I’d have thought the Lastclap sequences come pretty close. Pretty heavy-handed compared to the subtlety of this, though.

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8 years ago

On the subject of the auto-translate to local dialect, then to English, I wonder how written text works?

When a character such as Hoid (probably from Yolen, maybe not) writes “the letter” from the Part 2 epigraphs in The Way of Kings whilst on on Roshar to what our best guess is another character from Yolen, then I guess it’s all hunky-dory.

But say we’re wrong if he writes whilst on Roshar to someone not from Yolen, then phrases such as “old reptile” that got everything talking are hard to pin down.

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8 years ago

@59

It’s not necessarily 100% related, but Nalthis only has one Shard present, while Scadrial, Roshar, and Sel each have at least two.

Allomancy comes from Preservation, Hemalurgy from Ruin, and Feruchemy from the combination/balance of both.

The magicks of Sel seem to all come from both shards, Devotion and Dominion.  It’s interesting to me that the “good guys” of Elantris seem dedicated to Dominion (Idos Domi!), since Devotion seems a more “positive” Shard.  Also, Devotion and Dominion are both dead, and the magic is powered by their corpses (the Dor).

Surgebinding is a combination of Cultivation and Honor, I think?  I could be wrong here, because Surgebinding is a lot more complex than Allomancy or BioChroma, but I think the reason each branch of the Knights Radiant has two Surges and a ComboPower is the combination of the Shards.

Voidbringers/Voidbinding is from Odium, I think?  But he’s not on Roshar, he’s on a nearby planet.

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8 years ago

What language is Hoid using when he talks about rabbits (which are not native to Roshar)? And what about the word axehound that seems to have an offworld origin?

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Rasarr
8 years ago

@67

It’s interesting to me that the “good guys” of Elantris seem dedicated to Dominion (Idos Domi!), since Devotion seems a more “positive” Shard.

Sorry to be nitpicky, but actually, no. “Domi” comes from Aon Omi, meaning Love; one could make a cause for Elantrians worshipping Devotion. (And in Secret History, one of the Ire’s Elantrians actually states something along the lines of “merciful Devotion”, so there’s that)

Regarding the text – Warbreaker was my first Sanderson novel, so I guess this prologue will always hold a special place in my heart ;) I didn’t catch anything of the foreshadowing and clues pointing to the resolution of the novel back then – and even though I’ve re-read it twice since, I didn’t realize that Awakening metal was a huge sign pointing in Nightblood’s general direction until you’ve pointed it out. Makes me even more interesting in following this re-read.

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8 years ago

@69
IIRC, the Ire curse to both Dominion and Devotion in M:SH depending on which character is speaking.  After a recent re-read of Elantris, I’m still uncertain as to which geographical area worships which Shard (or a combination, to complicate the question).  Geographical attributes certainly tie to Dominion, which implies a connection to the Elantrians (the missing chasm-line in the Aons), and the Fjordell worship of Shu-Dereth almost seems like a misguided form of devotion.

I’m going a bit sideways from the Warbreaker thread here, but it’s late in the game this week.  Any thoughts y’all?

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Rasarr
8 years ago

@70 – To continue the derailing, at this point I rather doubt that any area on Sel worships any specific Shard, considering it must’ve been quite a while since D’n’D have splintered. By the time of Elantris, I think it’s a mixed bag, really, much like the Dor is – Elantris worships deity with the name derived from “love” while their magic is based on territory, while Fjorden wants to dominate over all else while devoting themselves to their religion (or Wurm, it’s been a while since I’ve read Elantris).

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RM dwarf
8 years ago

@44 A trick to seeing Zahel would be someone noticing a grey spot on a building or seeing him in grey robes instead of brown. Even without knowing what he’s done. 

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8 years ago

Hmm … all the Sel magics involve metal. Zahel/Vasher is the only person alive who can Awaken metal. He needed enormous amounts of Breath, but now he can use Stormlight. What happens if an Allomancer (say, Hoid) burns Awakened metal?

Braid_Tug
8 years ago

@73: somewhere Brandon has responded to  that question.   Sadly I think the response was RAFO. (Read and find out)

So I think we will see that happen in a future book. 

It boils down to will the objects investiture enhance or negate the metals inherent powers?  I feel the answer will be a sliding scale.   Some metals will benefit,  others will not.   Which I know is almost a non answer. Yet the interactions of multiple Cosmere powers have to result in strange ways.

Nazrax
8 years ago

@67 “Hemalurgy comes from Ruin”

The characters believe this – but there’s WoB that Hemalurgy works anywhere in the Cosmere. It’s a way of stealing Investiture, not a source of Investiture itself.

 

@67 Surgebinding is a combination of Cultivation and Honor, I think?

Syl says that the spren figured out what Honor did when he created the Honorblades and replicated it themselves. Of course, it also seems that some surges are “closer” to Honor while others are “closer” to Cultivation, so …

 

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McKay B
8 years ago

This Prologue was a bit info-dump-heavy for me, and I’m normally pretty tolerant of such things. For all that, it left me a little disappointed that we get so little information about Vahr’s personality. But I guess I can just trust Brandon that Vahr wasn’t really an interesting character anyway.

Also, I agree with @60 that Nightblood is amusing, but not terribly interesting. So far. I guess he might get more interesting as we see more how other characters are able to influence his ideas of “evil.”

@55, @56: Thanks for helping me clear up in my head how to picture Nightblood. Where is this quote from?

@63: Ooooh, good catch! I took that as a “grumpy old person” statement and failed to think about it in the context of him being a Returned.

@75: I think a lot of the Surges are either pure-Honor or pure-Cultivation. Maybe all of them. Wyndle sure seems to ascribe his existence purely to Cultivation, while Syl and the Stormfather are closely tied to Honor. Pattern, surprisingly, doesn’t seem to talk much about either Shard. We’ll have to see if there are “mixed” Surges when we get to know the spren of Willshapers, Elsecallers, Dustbringers, and Skybreakers.

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8 years ago

Oh man, I’ve had things to say since Friday but forgot to come back and say them when I had time. 

Patillion @49 I dislike the cover too. The sword doesn’t belong as it’s clearly not Nightblood. The way the elements have been placed together for the banner of our reread is quite nice though. 

Jumping off of what Wingracer said @55, since Nightblood is long what must Vasher’s duffle bag look like? 

On Nightblood, I’ve heard him compared to a shardblade a lot. There is no way someone of Roshar could confuse the two though. A shardblade is lighter than expected and Nightblood is heavier than expected. I don’t really feel like they’re that similar. They are pretty different weapons

Normally I wouldn’t criticize Brandon’s word choices but this part bugs me:

“the prisoner’s BioChroma was very impressive and much, much stronger than Vasher’s own. The prisoner held a lot of Breaths. Hundreds upon hundreds of them.

 Vasher only comments on having reached the Second Hightening. The Third Hightening is 600 breaths. If he started with 50 breaths then he got less than 550 from Vahr. 550 is pretty close to the smallest number that could be referred to as hundreds upon hundreds. The phrase makes one think of a much larger number. Hundreds upon hundreds would have to be at least 200+200 right?

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8 years ago

@75 Nazrax, hemalurgy can come FROM Ruin and still work anywhere in the Cosmere, just as Hoid can use Allomancy anywhere. The principles (Shards of Adonalsium) aren’t restricted to planets, just the beings they are bound to. Odium/Rayse has influence and magic on Roshar, after all.

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Daniel
8 years ago

@73 Scadrial, actually (Sel is the Elantris/Emperor’s Soul planet), but that’s just nitpicking.

@73 AND 74, based upon how compounding works for Twinborn in the second Mistborn era, the form of Investiture stored (Breath in this case, but in Mistborn its Feruchemical stores) should overwrite the effect of the metal. That is, whatever the metal does will be completely overwritten by what the Breath does. However, the expression of the Investiture remains Allomantic, in that it will be a net-positive action. In practice, I assume that this would allow an Awakener/Allomancer to very quickly multiply the number of Breaths that they have. In fact, you could probably turn yourself into a demigod pretty quickly.

Anthony Pero
8 years ago

Austin@32 and RE: Infodump discussion:

I don’t think its a weakness of Brandon’s, I think its a weakness of the stories he tells. The info dumps are absolutely, positively necessary to have any clue how the magic systems work, which are a character unto themselves in his stories. The only alternative would be to always have an outsider who needs it explained to him or her. How boring would that be. So, that’s just how it needs to be. He has gotten craftier about how he inserts them. In Way of Kings, its perfectly reasonable how the Assassin in White is thinking about all the things those trying to stop him don’t know. Its not ideal, but again, the only way we the audience can learn how it works is for someone to tell us.

With that in mind, the reason Sanderson’s works still hook us should be obvious; we like learning about the magic systems. Its a feature, not a bug.

Anthony Pero
8 years ago

To expound upon that further, some might say, “We don’t need to know how it works to enjoy it.” Perhaps, but we DO need to know its weak points, because of Sanderson’s Second Law. If he doesn’t foreshadow those weak points before they happen, then they seem inauthentic and contrived. I don’t know how else you are supposed to foreshadow the weak points of a magic system, or avoid Dues ex Machina without explaining the magic system.

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8 years ago

@3 @44 Just want to jump on saying I actually love when authors do this (throw you in the deep end). It can be done poorly, just like anything, but when it’s done right it gives you just enough information to go on, but enough mystery to keep you intrigued and guessing.

The alternative is an extremely long intro with nothing but info dumps (that are recognizably info dumpy), or revealing the world on an as-needed basis which makes things feel very ass-pulled and adlibbed, whether they are or not. A lot of YA novels suffer from this, like Harry Potter, or anything where the protagonist is a newbie who has to have everything explained to them. But when your character is a grizzled veteran and possibly eons old, it doesn’t really have sense to have them *not* think about random bits that we as readers won’t recognize.

Re: sayings/language – I am so lost right here. Is this Sanderson telling us how he perceives language in his cosmere? I’m not a much of a cosmere study, so when extreme “world building” topics like this come up they just sail past me. I’m glad some people can appreciate the nuance though.

 

Pero – well said!

manavortex
8 years ago

Only the pre-Reod Elantrians seemed to transform without being “broken” in some way first.

I think you need to be Devoted to something to transform? Like Raoden was to his people? 

Edit: Oh! Excited! Yay, a re-read to participate in! Also, new here! Hi! On the autistic spectrum, btw, so not intentionally weird… most of the tim

manavortex
8 years ago

Thanks! :) 

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8 years ago

To add to the info dump discussion – I’ve been doing my job for 10 years and still think/work through the basics fairly regularly, so it never seems weird to me when characters do it in books.

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WuseMajor
8 years ago

I have to say that I love when Brandon includes stuff like the Fifth Heightening line in his stories, that you get much more clearly on the reread.  I hadn’t really understood just how chock full of foreshadowing this one was until now though, so thanks.

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8 years ago

@49 re the cover – I also was quite surprised at how “racy” I thought the cover was. Which is funny for me as I’m certainly no prude. I gave this book to my 15 year old son’s best friend as he was just starting to get into Sanderson and I had wound up with two copies, and my son’s friend told me his father raised an eyebrow at the cover as well.  But then the father read it and was fine with his son reading it, and they both really liked it.

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